tax reform to hide a tax increase and peer at ickley politicians in tax reform is that what they mean is they want to raise tax reform. there are two ways, raise the rates or broaden the base without bringing the rates down. no raising the rates and if you want to get reductions in credit that's great. bring the rates down dollar for dollar. that is what ryan does in the ryan plan is perfectly consistent. >> host: let's bring in chris from florida on the republican line. good morning chris. you were on with grover norquist. >> caller: thank you. thank you for c-span. mr. norquist, i think there is a big problem. perception is everything when it comes to marketing and it's the perception that the democrats are able to get across because the democrats, they know their audience and they know who their pandering to. and they treat them like stupid children. i will give you an example. you remember when the bush tax cuts first came out and tom daschle and dick gephardt were the minority leaders. they didn't have anything. they didn't have the house and they didn't have the senate or the wh